Business agility fails when we don't put people first

Welcome to Definitely Maybe Agile, the podcast where Peter Madison and David Shark discuss the complexities of adopting new ways of working at scale. Hello, and welcome to another exciting episode of Definitely Maybe Agile. I think it's number 52. So it's uh been a whole year of these. It's been awesome. We've really enjoyed this. So uh hi Dave, how are you doing?

Excellent. I can't actually believe we've kind of gone through the whole calendar year week by week and always had a topic and an interesting conversation to kind of go through. So it's been good. Uh looking forward to our topic for today. So, well, this is quite an interesting topic. It's about retention, and hopefully we've retained some interested listeners as we've gone through the year. But let's maybe focus more about retention of um our employees, of the team members that we're working with.

Yeah, and in particular where where when business agility goes wrong, because we've talked about uh how good doing business agility right helps you retain employees and build a culture that uh helps uh bring people on board and uh feel engaged and all of the other wonderful things that come with it. But uh today I thought we could talk a little bit about like what happens when things go wrong.

Yeah, and I think this is um I mean I I see this as as not a not so not a case of if you don't do anything, what would happen? I'm thinking when I'm thinking of of this one is a lot of the conversations we talked about, the points we talked about on retention side was moving to an agile way of working is changing from you know the Dilbert cubicle farm type of things, which is a it's an exaggeration, it's it's a caricature of that working environment, but moving to something that is more uh um engaging and and dynamic and empowering for teams. Uh, and yet there are organizations that make that step, announce that step, and actually create an environment which actually which which pushes people away and doesn't pull people in. And I think that's what we're looking at. What happens when you try and get that agility, you recognize the value it's going to give you, but somehow you miss the mark.

Yeah, I find uh I always like to start this conversation with the idea that uh uh leaders go first, that if they're talking the talk but not walking the walks, then that is often what leads to that. Where they they've got all the right words, they say all the buzzwords, they they talk about how they want to go faster and be inclusive and autonomy, and they throw out all these wonderful words. But then when push comes to shove, uh it all comes down to the numbers, behaviors don't change, and they their their actions don't back up their words.

Yeah, I every time somebody talks about leaders eat first, and I'll um I'll just call that one out, is there's the book by Simon Sinek, Leaders Eat Last, which is just tremendous, and it really speaks of that the story being that your leader is the last one to take advantage in the the story in the book uh of taking advantage of the food available for the team, last one that comes in and eats. I think that's a tremendous example. I'm just reminded there's a company I worked with, and this there's more than one company, there are many companies where we're putting frugal, you know, um uh uh uh hot desking and and dynamic work environments in place on the one level, and yet somewhere else in that building, you know, on the top floor is a wooden panel encrusted kind of floor, which is where the executives live. And of course, the messaging there is just it is it's not to say that there isn't some value in that, depending on the role and the companies and what you do in that executive space, but there's clearly a mixed, you know, mixed message or a gap in in uh congruency that you see in those in those scenarios.

Yes, this piece of where it's uh when we say people first, we actually mean people first. Actually um making sure that uh we're ensuring that we that uh employees have what they need to be happy, that we're we're helping them uh succeed in their roles, that they've got opportunities, uh all of these things which um can often not occur the way that they should. And another common one that I which is uh especially uh important at the moment is uh uh the in the hiring process where it uh you're you're there and you're th these days, especially like uh being nine interviews in would be a little bit of a tricky thing. You'd like you've you've it's uh taking far too long and uh and not being honest or not uh engaging well in that uh process can be uh devastating.

This is it's interesting you mentioned that, because right now, increment one, we're we're growing, we're doing exactly that process, we're entering into that whole hiring process. So hold us accountable to what we're talking about on this call, right? This conversation. But it's it's a challenge in one way because to get good cultural fit, you often need multiple touch points. I mean you, you know, it's not one or two conversations, but if that stretches out in an extended or you're you're not getting guided through that so that the expectations are clearly set at the outset, that can be really demoralizing. And certainly we've I've seen that mistake in a lot of different ways. I've been on the side of making that mistake, and I've seen that mistake of just a hiring process that kind of never quite ends, or it's unclear what's what the process is.

Yeah, it's it's difficult. I mean, one of the things I've seen organizations do wrong is just simply not put enough thought into that, like into the actual process. Like, what does that look like? Um, what is it that we need to know to find the right person for our team? And and how do we ensure that the the person that uh talked to understands what we're looking for and and how it what working with us would feel like?

Yeah, it's interesting. I was just going to say, and what does what do they need to know about us to make the decision easy from their side as well? Uh and then of course there's just a simple duration. If we just look at it from a cycle time perspective, obviously we want that cycle time to be short for lots of reasons that we've talked about in many other conversations. But it's also that respectful thing. You can't keep people hanging around wondering what's going to happen, because it has a big impact on their own careers and home life and everything else as you're going through that process. Oh, completely.

So, what are the things?

What else do you see? Sorry, I I got there first. No, what else do you see? What else do you see beyond the hiring process?

Well, there's um there's some pieces around um and this it relates to the very first thing that we were saying there around uh making sure that uh leaves first, but it's also the this idea that uh if you are saying that you are exempt that you're gonna have autonomy in your role, that uh you'll have the opportunity to become a master of your trade and that you'll be given purpose and role, those things have to be true, right? It's uh you have to actually uh really truly be offering um the the these things with to the person in the organization. Uh, if if you're not, then obviously that's gonna also create a very bad experience for your employees. Um it's uh very similar in some ways.

Well, the the the bad experience you're talking about, that's the congruency piece. If we say we're agile and we say we work with self-directed, empowered, dedicated, agile teams, then and we buy into that, then our values are aligned with exactly that experience. And if we now walk in and the experience we have is significantly different, is misaligned with effectively what we're either reading about, being sold, or or is being described to us. The problem is less about um disappointment that I thought, you know, I was going to get an office on the top floor and now I'm getting an office midway through whatever the equivalent is today in remote working environments, but it's more about um our values. We've probably made that decision because they directly align with the values that we look for in environments that we work in. And so we've now actually got a real problem because those alignments, those, those values are misaligned, and that is really tough. It's not about disappointment so much as I can't go into work every day and feel like I'm contributing and I'm comfortable and and and it's in line with the sort of things that I was expecting.

And I I mean I've heard that story so many times, and uh I mean you have a lot of the in the really good organizations you end with boomerang employees where it's like, hey, I want to go try this thing over here. They've told me it's really, really awesome, and they go over there and then two weeks later they come back. Can I come back? Can I have my job back? Because uh what was advertised is not what the reality is like. And so when they get in there and the the work starts, it's um not uh as the grass isn't as green as they thought it was gonna be.

And that uh Yeah, and I it's it's interesting you say that because that that concept of boomerang employees is something that um the those companies that sort of live and breathe the purpose piece, um, often have a very high number, you know, percentage-wise, of people who ping out and ping back, ping out and ping back. And they don't ping out and ping back repeatedly. It's like they go away, try things out, come back and go, you know what, I know where my home base is, and this is what what I was looking for all along.

So, how would you sum this up in three things?

Yeah, so I think we we talked first of all about the hiring process, and that's like the entry gate. Yeah, if you get that wrong, it it's like any you know, first impressions make a huge difference, and the hiring process is the start of that first impression. If we kind of make a mess there, we're always going to be on our back foot. So I think that was uh an excellent observation uh that you brought in. Um the other one is that incongruence, and and this is a bit more different it's I guess what we're really saying there is talk about what's really happening, not what you think might one day happen, perhaps, so that people make those value decisions correctly, right?

Yeah, don't lie.

Yeah, don't lie. That's a good way of putting it. That's much better than I'm putting it.

Stop beating around the bush.

There we go. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not sure, I think those were the main things that we talked about, right? So is that sort of alignment or congruency. And I think there's the piece don't lie, as you said, and the hiring process.

Yeah, the the walking the walk piece as well. I think there's that one. And uh make sure that from a leadership perspective you you do what you say you're gonna do, and that it you're not um sort of just saying the words and not actually taking the actions.

Uh so yeah, that lead by example, as you mentioned right at the outset. Excellent.

Awesome. Well, uh wonderful conversation, as always, Dave, and uh forward to having many more. And uh with that, uh, if you want to send us any feedback, you can at feedback at definitely maybeagile.com and uh look forward to next time.

Yeah, looking forward to it. May another year pass by as quickly as this one, did indeed.

You've been listening to Definitely Maybe Agile, the podcast where your hosts Peter Maddison and Dave Sharrock focus on the art and science of digital, agile, and DevOps at scale.