Digital change management

Welcome to definitely maybe to discuss the complexities of adopting new ways of looking at scale. Hello and welcome to another exciting episode of definitely maybe agile with your host, Peter Maddison and Dave Sharrock. So how are you today, David? Hi.

Well, it's great finally to be in the same building, in fact, in the same room, talking to one another instead of you know thousands of miles apart with lots and lots of cabling and and yeah.

Yeah, it's it's nice to all be in like one place to have these conversations. And and what what are we chatting about today?

Uh the the obvious thing to look at when we're all in the same place is digital change management, I thought. Um, but more it's if we think back to the last couple of episodes that we've been talking about, it's all been about transformation, digital transformations, and what constitutes the transformation. But there's a there's a sort of uh underlying piece or overly umbrella over this, which is digital what change management and therefore digital.

Yeah, I I find that um there's this piece where we we talk end up talking a lot about hey, like this is why we want to do these things, and we talk about a lot when we're talking about the different types of transformation and like what is the goal and ensuring that you have that line, where's the vision, where are we heading to? And there's this piece about well, how do you like overcome the inertia of starting? Um, but we don't talk so much about the um, well, you've got to keep going. This is this is uh journey. Well, we we talked about it's a marathon, not a sprint.

It's like we're well we we touched on it when we talked about organizational change or cultural change. We know the people bit is hard, but uh I think in so many cases that when we bring change management in, it's a it's a formulaic process, and there are some brilliant models out there that have proven quite adaptable in the past. But with the digital, I think there's so many elements we talked about, there's four different pieces. Uh, there's so many elements coming together that digital change itself is something that needs attention and can't we can't just kind of dust off what we've done in our previous transformations. And I guess the the two things that I'm thinking of when we think about that. One is that it's the whole bit about crossing the chasm and the fact that what got you here isn't what's going to keep you going forward. I mean, that's really what crossing the chasm is about, is the bit that you do before crossing the chasm is dealing with a different cultural expectations and mindsets and so on. So once you're trying to keep that going, you actually have to understand and adapt your practices from that. There's another topic, but let me maybe dig into that one in a bit more detail. What would you add?

Uh I think the yeah, this is the piece around we know that we're going to, as we introduce change, find some early adopters. And they're they're often the same people who are like, they're all over this idea that, hey, we want to do things differently. That sounds really exciting. I'd love to do that. How can I help you? And and you you look for those people who are going to help you with that, and uh we those are the people that are going to help you before you hit that chasm. And typically you find that that grows up to a point of uh of uh where it's usually the amount of influence that the person who is trying to instigate this has so that it'll survive until it reaches the limits of that, and then you hit the chasm. Well how do I go further?

It's the prototype, you've proven the prototype, and now we move up through the hierarchy or where the decisions are made, and all of a sudden that prototype is is selected and chosen to be rolled out. But the difference is that the pioneers, that the mindset that they have, they're really very they they don't ask very many questions. They're very easy to work with because they're incredibly patient and very comfortable if we don't quite have all of our ducks in a room. But as we cross that chasm and we move into the early and late majority, those they have different needs. And in particular, what I find really interesting is they need structure, they need guidance, they need real clarity about what's going on. And I've spent many years as a coach pushing away from defined roles and responsibilities because when you work in pre-chasm, that area is is almost um the last conversation you want to have because it immediately pushes people away from it in terms of whatever the idea is you're trying to share. When you cross that chasm, that's like the first thing that they're looking for. How does the change that you're talking about impact my role, my responsibilities, my way of working today? And I need clarity. I don't need you know a warm, fuzzy conversation about it. I really need to know exactly what that will change, how that will change.

Yeah, it's the it's they've got to overcome the uh uh in their minds, it's the uh and in reality in a lot of cases, it's like that'll never work here. So this is this piece of uh and one of the ways you do that is by making it clearer around like this is what these are where the roles are, these are the responsibilities, this is how we see this working. Um can we try this and see how it works and start to experiment with that there? Uh but it yeah, I would agree it has to be that much more that much clearer for people to get the buying.

So when I'm thinking about um digital change management, on the one hand, what we've just started describing is the the planning and the making sure we've got this, that, and the other in order, but there's a there's a balance to that which we need to watch out for, which is we're working with complex systems, people, IT systems, digital businesses, and so on. And in those scenarios, the bigger the step forward, the leap forward that you take and plan and go when we land, we expect to see X, Y, and Z, the more likely it is that when you do land wherever it is that you're jumping to. And what I'm really thinking of is starting off with this is the current state. Now we've proven it with a proof of concept, we bought into the idea, so now let's transition everybody over. Well, when we look at that current state, when you get there, the whole thing is different. So we need to stay take small steps, not large steps.

Yeah, yeah. Well, this is your classic Kubernetes curve. It's like we we know we have to go into chaos to change, but the larger larger you make that chasm, the larger you make that gap, the bigger the change, the deeper the pit that you're gonna have to fall into. Yeah, and that and then there's no guarantee you'll ever connect with this side either. It could just be chaos forever. But you I think I've worked there. Yeah, uh possibly, quite possibly. Uh there so there's yeah, so so to mitigate that, you want to make the change as small as possible. You want to make the so that you're not um you're not introducing massive changes highly disruptive. Uh like it's it's not a good idea to have everybody come in on Monday and reapply for their jobs until this is true.

But well, and I always like the way um Dave Snowden's described this, which is large changes beget large unintended consequences. Small changes give you small unintended consequences. So make small changes because the unintended consequences is what's going to kill you. Um, what I do think is worth us bearing in mind is that those changes, it's not, you know, set the vision, make a small change, and then look around and set the vision. The vision, the goal, what you're trying to achieve can be ambitious and far in the future. And that's the direction that you're aiming for. But you want to then that really allows us. That's the classic North Star piece, right? We need that north star so that as we're making the changes, we can re-orient, reorient what we're doing and make sure we're still moving in the direction of that. And we'll zig and zag a little bit as we move forward when we're making small steps. When you take the big steps, we're losing on two fronts. One is you can end up with the North Star behind you or sideways or wherever it is. But number two, you now used your bank of credit/slash change energy in the organization. So you're not the right easy to get a second bite of that, Sherry.

There is another piece that uh just throw Dole that I'm gonna throw out into there, which is that incremental change in small influence is totally the way that you need to do this to go on not doing with the least amount of disruption. But when we but it often gets confused with when we look at innovation and we need step changes in how we're adopting or changing our technology, yeah. That we also need to consider that there are going to be times that there is a need for like large change, but we want to manage that, we want to eliminate limit the blast radius as much as possible.

You're mixing a lot of metaphors there. Yeah, right.

Welcome to Friday after that. Yeah, well, there you go. So you know but I'm bringing it up because I it's one thing that I've seen organizations get confused to make.

Yeah, let's play around with that one for a little bit because I think if you're really trying to explore these big step changes, I'd say this is pre-CASM work in the sense that you know these are the bets, and you need to make multiple bets and expecting many of those bets to fall flat on their face, but that allows you to look at you know markedly different things, right? Whatever that might be. I've I'm still not sure that, and I think this is mixing uh or confusing speed for the size of the steps. So, what I'm thinking there is your small steps or the small changes don't have to be small changes that aren't going to have a big influence. You can have a very clear major transformational objective or major step change that you're achieving, you're working towards, but you're still going to want to somehow do that incrementally. And I'm thinking here of you know, it's a bit like the cutting over of new systems, old from old systems. There is the sort of pull all the plugs out, plug in the new plugs, split the switch, and pray that everything goes the way you expected it to. Uh a much more better, let's just call it better way is is to cut over bit by bit. So you're all you're you're kind of going over and you're learning as you go, with everybody understanding that the old system is getting turned off, the new system. So there's still a step change, but where maybe we're adding a bit of a curve at the bottom and curve at the top kind of thing.

Yeah, I think we we'll need to explore this one more and deliver.

Okay, that's a disagreeable innovation because it because there's another piece around uh more like how how we how we find the new thing in the yeah, that one is that I mean that's Monte Carlo, and like there's a whole bunch of things there about how do you explore your landscape, your problem landscape in the right way to find the best solution. And I think that's a totally different piece. Also, I would argue in the sort of pre- you know, the early stage, you're gonna find you want to do that, and that's what I mean by keeping them apart.

You those people are also gonna be the happy to doing it. Yes. So once you've got through your whatever you're looking to do, getting them to go, hey, here's here, go go find me the next new thing that I want to do can be quite a good mission to send them on as well. It could be something exciting.

Yes, yeah, definitely. Now, I think uh maybe there's you know, just as we we sort of keep going with this conversation, there's one other thing that we start seeing, and at least I've seen in many cases, is a desire to, as you go through the change, to immediately be efficient, to to to sort of um change and optimize all at the same time. Right. So so there's that, and and part of that is driven by some sort of metrics, KPIs, and the governance is like, oh, we've got to maintain, for example, maintain what we've done in the past or do better, or it can just be we've planned for this, and we know exactly how we're going to optimize this.

Yeah, you spend six months planning for like whatever you do, you introduce it Monday morning, we're all suddenly different than we were before. Uh so yeah, that's because we all that's the way it always works, right? Exactly.

Because that's day one of school all over again every time it changes.

Exactly. It's what everybody, everybody is all immediately gonna completely and get and understand absolutely everything about watching.

Yeah, no, it doesn't have the army.

Well, no, it's uh but it's it's uh I I mean this is that whole concept of of changing the plane while it's flying. So there is an you know, we've got to be able to understand that A, yes, you've still got to be able to fly the plane or drive your your your your vehicle or whatever it might be. However, there's got to be a way that you act, you know, you're you're I mean this it comes into funding and resourcing, right? You're going to be running duplicate processes, or you're going to be over-resourced in certain areas as you're making those changes because you don't know where you can claw back some of those things. And so there's a there's a it's you've got to get the balance right, I think.

Yeah, there's there's this this element of it being an individual change as well, so that uh it may that's the other reason to keep the change small, because everybody's gonna go through that change themselves in the way that they do with their context, yeah. So they're not so when you start to introduce change that way, you can't expect that everybody's gonna get through that calendar in the same way, they're all gonna take their own journey.

So you've just you've just brought up a great thing that we should probably touch on and use this to wrap up change fatigue. Yes. Over to you.

Over to me, yeah. Well, I've suddenly got the fatigue. Uh uh, so yeah, I mean, this is obviously when you're introducing change all the time. I mean, that there's lots of big quotes out around this, but this this whole idea that we we will get tired with having to change all the time. People can feel like this, like, oh, yet another change. Yeah, this is the same thing we were doing last year. It feels just like it's the same set of rhetoric. If they're not seeing it, if they don't see the benefits and they're not seeing the improvements, and they're not feeling that they're actually getting anywhere, then they're very much going to feel like, oh, you're just disrupting your game for no reason. And that could be that can introduce a lot of um underlying problems into the organization that will last for a very, very long time. Yeah.

Well, um, I find I've I I've always been really challenged with this because there are changes that all of us have gone through which aren't fatiguing, yes, which which are energizing, which are which, and I'm I'm smiling at this, but I'm thinking of of having a new child in the household, right? Highly recommended, first of all, right? But then the other side is that's a massive change, which of course the parents involved and so on are is is tiring, but the change isn't tiring, if that makes sense. It's then all of the work that comes with that is tiring, but it's something that is is actually very energizing in many ways as well. And so, how do you to get the changes to be you know, not to continually drain the tank? And and I think that's so much to do with change management. How to do it like not use the word change all the time as an example, um, not make a big deal of it, but also make sure that the changes are small and like you there's a great I was in Europe in the summer, and there's this I um uh there's a town in uh in the Netherlands, Loijwarden, I think it is, but I'll check it. But they they have this walking forest, they have huge, huge, like five, I don't know, four foot by four foot tubs with trees planted in them, and there's a little device that people are allowed to like fork the truck, and you can come in. They've got maybe a hundred, hundred and fifty trees in the town centre, and you you get the right to move a handful of trees around. So every time you come into the town centre, it's changed. It's a totally different walk through the town center experience. I'm sure if you commute through there, it must be really irritating. Um but at the same time in the middle of the road, yeah. But but there's this really kind of energizing bit about small amounts of change, so you're pleasantly surprised as you turn a corner and things have changed. Well, exactly, you're left in the not all of them, and it's it's it was a really wonderful kind of idea that I thought was really cool, and also has that whole idea of change doesn't have to be quite as negative as we sometimes think it is.

Yes, yes, and and we we all go through change all of the time in all of our life, but we we see this, and this is where that change of it's but uh making the change is energizing, making it something understanding why we're doing it is a is a bit parallel, too. Uh so shall we sum this up? Yeah, what do you kind of take away from that then? Uh that I I think I would talk about the the chain, making changes small enough so that uh that people can get through it. So even though everybody goes through that individual change differently, if the change is small enough, it's still it's less disruptive. It's um so we want lots of small changes, not massive, one massive change, uh, for sure. That's a huge, huge part of it. Uh so there's um the I think another another part we didn't touch on there, which is uh we didn't get to the plateauing piece. We were gonna talk about the like this idea that we we we had this mistake, and I've I've seen this. I've I've uh earlier in my career have actually made this mistake where we we've done all of the work, we've done all the changing around, we've we've executed, we've done it, and then we stop because we think we're done. And and we we don't continue. So I think that's another really key takeaway that like it's the change is continuous. Uh so we did kind of touch on it, but I don't think we got it to that point. That change goes uh is always going to be there, we're always going to be uh doing small changes and always changing.

So what would you add to that? I think uh we we spent quite a bit of time at the beginning talking about the different like people's expectations, sort of as you're mapping out the changes, as you're creating the prototype, as you're proving it out, and their mindset and what their expectations, what they're looking for, is different to uh those for the for that rollout where you're now standardizing and making it the norm and driving it through your organization so everybody can adapt and adopt those changes.

Yes. That's awesome. Well, thank you for that as always, Dave, and wonderful to be here in person. Exactly. And uh yeah, I look forward to next time. So you can contact us at uh definitely maybe agile uh feedback at definitely maybe agile.com and I look forward to next time until next time people like that. Thank you. You've been listening to Definitely Maybe Agile, the podcast where your hosts are Peter Maddison and Dave Sharrock focused on the art and client of digital, agile, and developed.