Leadership feedback

Welcome to Definitely Maybe Agile, the podcast where Peter Maddison and Dave Sharrock discuss the complexities of adopting new ways of working at scale. Hello and welcome to another exciting episode of Definitely Maybe Agile with your hosts Peter Madison and David Shark. So how are you doing today, Dave? Excellent, Peter. How are you doing? Not too bad. Not too bad. It's uh it's been uh an eventful week. It's been a lot of uh fun going on, and uh yeah, no, it's been good. How have things uh been going for you?

Well, I wanted to touch on a uh I'm just bringing a particular topic in that I've been dealing with this week, which is around feedback and leaders providing feedback to the teams, the people that they're working with. I think it's a a really underrepresented or undercovered topic. Too many times leaders are just expected to adjust. And and you see so many examples of this with that. The the old feedback muscle is still there, the old leadership muscle is still there, and we're really expecting a lot more of leaders nowadays, I think.

I I agree. I think uh there is a lot of uh especially after the last 18 months, I mean, there's a lot of expectations of leaders and expectations that leaders will be able to act and behave in in certain ways, and that's that's very important, right? It's uh it's one of these things where uh we really we have these high expectations of these people who've ended up in these roles and they've not necessarily uh had some of the experiences we're expecting them to, or learn some of the things that we might have liked them to along the way. And one of those things is is definitely around feedback. I mean, it's uh both giving feedback, recognizing feedback, asking for feedback, uh, and uh and listening to a very, very difficult things for a lot of people to do, whether they're leaders or not.

I think you even just as you're ending there, you're just talking about that whole aspect of it's feedback is a two-way thing, it's not one way. And I'm reminded of what whenever we talk about um building trust, we talk about the five dysfunctions of a team, and that the first thing to overcome on a team is a lack of trust. And one of the first things that we can do as leaders is show vulnerability there, is start off with that vulnerable view so that the perspective to kind of be open to feedback. So maybe we can touch on that first. I think one of the first things about a leadership, especially in in the way things are changing at the moment, that you know, we don't have everybody sat in the same room that we can go and sort of uh uh uh you know engage with in the same way. So there's a lot more one-on-one conversations, there's a lot more different personalities and and and expectations and everything else there. So, number one, gathering feedback. What do you see? What would you want your leaders to do when it comes to getting feedback from the people that work with?

So there's a there's a lot of different models out there for like helping the leader facilitate that conversation, but it really comes down to for one part, being open to it, being uh able to say, ask the questions around uh, well, how do you think this has gone? How what else uh could I have done better? Is there something I could do to support you uh better? Is there something else that I can I can help with? And providing uh asking questions about how uh they think that you did in supporting them and uh making sure that that is a there's there's an open conversation around that, that it's not just uh the a piece where the you as a leader are going in and provide dictating what you expect to see, and uh then saying providing people feedback when you see something you don't like. Uh it this has to be uh there's the that aspect of feedback too, is like ensure you're reinforcing the positive, uh like making sure that you're providing feedback when you see the the things that you're that you're looking for, and encouraging the the the behaviors that we want and the the the types of activities that we want to see happen and root so that uh the team and the organization is growing in the right way.

I I love what you say there, and and in the sense that uh one of the things that I really like to see in the you know my own leadership journey has been something that I strive for still to this day is the seeking feedback almost first, before any other like it's almost a habit of continually seeking that feedback on the one thing, but also then sincerely listening to it and adjusting. It's very easy to come in and say, hey, I'm you know, I'm here to get better, give me some feedback, we make it make a note of it. Maybe if we're really smart, we're visibly writing it down somewhere, but then we ignore it or we say, Well, they don't understand the situation that I'm under, and we just take away, you know, walk away from the opportunity. So an understanding of how can we sincerely uh feedback, like like reflect back, if you like, to the people who give us feedback, what behaviors we might be changing, how can we do that and take that away, right? So that sincerity around it becomes important. Um one of the things that I actually really like are things like leadership, these leadership 360 type of reviews. Uh, I know they get a good and a bad press, depending, I guess, on which end of it you are on, but uh the conversations and the outcomes that you can get from that, the discussions and the realization of how the perception that people see uh is valuable. It's it's input that you can have a conversation around. You can take decisions and and improve or adjust your leadership posture as a result.

Yeah, I I agree. I think it's one of those pieces where there's and that's one of the things with 360 review is of course you're allowing people to provide anonymous feedback as well, very often, to be able to uh speak their minds without any organizational uh sort of political um shenanigans going on, which is one of the often one of the things that will hold people back from giving that feedback. If uh if it's uh somebody who's in an authority figure above them where you've got um influence over uh how much they get rewarded or how much they they get paid or their status in some manner, then they're they're gonna be much more reluctant to provide honest feedback if they see that it might impact them in some way. Um they're they're not gonna want to come and say you suck.

Career limiting feedback, right?

Yeah, yeah, career limiting moves, and it's uh and it does take a very strong leader to be able to uh take that to the point about being vulnerable, to being able to take and listen to that feedback when it is negative and say, okay, so so what's driving that rather than reacting in a negative way in return.

Now I'm gonna add on to this because we're talking a little bit about okay, vulnerability and being out there and and sincere about taking feedback. There's another mindset shift we want leaders to recognize. And I I kind of came across this uh recently again in Extreme Ownership, the book Extreme Ownership, which is a fascinating uh uh kind of uh dissection, if you like, of the overlap of military leadership with business leadership. Um and one of the stories that they talk about, and there's a great story early on in the book about um uh uh a boat crew in uh in the SEALs where they swap one leader from one boat crew to the next, and the leader of the best performing boat crew moves to head up the worst performing boat crews team, and the leader of the worst performing boat crew heads up the the team of the best performing boat crew. And what's really the the takeaway from that is is that uh a low performing team is the r the result of poor leadership, it's not the result of a low-performing team, which seems kind of not obvious because too many times we see leaders who say, Well, I need a better team in order to perform. And that was that story is a very clear indication that we have to recognize as leaders, and this is a tough responsibility to take on, but we have to recognize that the performance of the team is really driven by the performance of the leader.

I I'd completely agree. I mean, I've and I've seen that in my own career, and uh when I've had teams working for me, and I I had one particular team that wasn't performing well, and uh uh but the the but it was the leader that was driving the the team, it was the the leader that was driving that poor performance. And by switching that leader over into another role, not only did the leader do better in that new role, uh because he didn't know as much about one of the reasons he was having problems was because he knew too much about what it was that he was managing. So he was micromanaging everything underneath it, and which was making the team unhappy, which making the team perform poorly because they weren't able to take in better action by moving him to another role where he didn't know anything about it, totally new space, that gave him um it allowed him to grow, it enabled him to demonstrate that he was a much better leader in that new role, and uh the team itself started to perform much better as well under new leadership that we brought in. So that the it's very true. It's it's uh the that is a very true comment that uh yeah, the team succeeds, but the late leader fails, right? It's the leadership that fails.

Yeah, and and I think this is a difficult one to take on because um I mean this is this goes back to the playground, and you're the captain of the football team and I'm a captain, and we get to pick the people on the team. Well, that has nothing to do with the you know, there are many, many examples of teams of underdogs that under the right leadership uh outperform and excel in the expectations in terms of what they can deliver. And I I this is I mean, this is what I love about leadership is the journey never ends, right? You're always trying to figure out what skills do we need as leaders in order to be able to uh have a positive impact on the team and and fundamentally allow the team to grow and perform in in its own right. This maybe brings us kind of circling round. We've talked a lot about the leadership mindset shift. Um, what about when you're giving feedback to teams? What what are the guidelines you would recommend?

Uh loud voice, uh shout a lot, don't yeah, don't don't don't allow the people you're talking to to say a word.

You prescribe to the human human side of leadership, right?

So yes, yeah. So there there are some there are some definitely some nuances in uh in uh giving feedback and there there are some pieces we have to consider. One is give feedback at the right time and the right moment and to understand who it is you're giving feedback to. And not everybody is going to feel gratified by the fact that you call them out in front of everybody for what they did, whether it's a good or a bad thing. Right? If it's a if it's a bad thing, you definitely shouldn't. But if it's a good thing, also consider whether or not uh it's the right thing to to do, because some people, uh, especially if they're fairly introverted, aren't going to feel very comfortable that you called them out in front of everybody else. So so think about w the the person that you're giving feedback to, understand what their needs are too, and don't make it all about yourself.

So you're you're throwing a couple of things in there. I'm just gonna tease them out very quickly. Number one, you ended with a cauker, which is don't make it about yourself. I don't think giving feedback is at all ever about you. It's not me the leader or you the leader, it's always about the right. Number one. Number two, I think I'd I'd like to pull out a couple of things. One is never ever give negative feedback in front of the rest of the team. I I just don't think there's ever a I mean, you hear about football teams and how the coaches will go in at halftime and say something. We're not in that sort of a world, and I'm not even sure it works necessarily in that sort of a world either, all the time, uh, if at all. But the other side of it is I think the other side is really important for us to recognize is too many times we give feedback because something's gone wrong. And as a lead, I I almost have to kind of write this in bold letters in every conversation I have with a team that I'm working with is look actively look for opportunities to say that's great, look at what you've done here. Compare what you were as a team, what we were able to achieve three months ago, and look at what we're doing now. We should be very proud of this. This is fantastic progress. So, one of the things is always looking for opportunities to call out great stuff, great results, great behaviors, whatever it might be. You also mentioned the timeliness. I mean, there's there is no time like the present. There is no point going, you know, if I said Peter uh four weeks ago when we had a conversation and we were recording a podcast, it's like it's a waste of time. Stop trying. I this is one of the and I'm not going to go into it, but this is one of the challenges we have with performance reviews. Annual performance reviews by definition are annual. I can only really give performance on the last 24 to 48 hours.

Yeah, that's uh yeah, that that that's a whole other can of worms to open up, but uh but it's a very important one when we're talking about feedback, and uh because quite often in organizations that annual performance review it can sometimes be the point at which we give feedback. And it's like, really? You waited a year to tell me that? That's that's just crazy. Like uh it would have been valuable to know that 364 days ago.

Absolutely, yeah. I I also um there there's a we learned these practices many years ago, like the the Oreo cookie approach to giving feedback. Yeah, I think that and and every time I've either tried it or I'm subjected to it or I hear it, there are certain practices like that. I think we have to, and and that what I was going to say is the psychological studies now are showing that this is completely ineffectual. Everybody can see the looming piece of negative feedback coming at you, and you're just ignoring the you know, there's no point sandwiching it between something. And I think that's part of it is treating people as intelligent. They they know they've made a mistake or they know they're about to get some feedback on it. Let's have a real open conversation rather than hedging around that topic, but again, not in front of everyone else, in a timely manner, in a respectful way, and um giving as much ownership as possible so that people can kind of navigate their own way out of it comfortably. What would you add?

Uh I think that's I think that's true. I agree that the the sandwich method, uh, positive, negative, positive, I think, has largely been derided uh across press. I think that getting to the point about what it is that needs to be discussed uh is uh a much better way of approaching it. Uh and uh having that conversation about so I and asking the question around what uh so so what happened here? What did you see and uh what could have gone better? And uh because that can be a good way of starting around what would we rather have seen instead? Or because they were if the diving right into the like saying the the the negative part of it is you suck, never do that again, uh, is that can have its own set of connotations. Um I do remember I was just gonna say from uh uh so there I know from a few years ago uh there was a a contractor that we had, this guy was uh as as a human being, he was a perfectly lovely human being. He was I had no problems with him on that side, but at the same time, as a somebody doing work for me who when I was in running the uh or running the trading floor, so I was doing a lot of the back-end support systems and engineering on a trading floor, uh and this uh uh he came in and he was he was tasked with doing a change that was supposed to be done over the weekend that was disruptive to the trading floor. Um, but he couldn't get it done when he was supposed to within the the time period that he said was, so he decided to do it at 9 a.m. on a Monday morning, took down the trading floor. Uh when and we obviously had to have a polite chat with him about yeah, like that that was a bad idea, you shouldn't have done that, like please don't do that again. Um the the chain there was a subsequent change that needed to be done, so he did that at 9 a.m. on the Tuesday, which led to some much stronger feedback and conversations.

Yeah, I I think what what you're describing there, I mean, there's we've got to be careful of the repeated piece. So I think that's a you know, the separate thing that comes into that sort of performance conversation at some point. Uh also though, is is the risk. And I whenever there have been tough conversations, and I I can only imagine how tough that sort of scenario is, the importance of writing down what you're going to say because it's so easy to break down and end up in a in a sort of accusatory statements which which aren't meant to be accusatory. I don't think any leader really steps in wanting to point the finger at people. But it's very easy in that that heat of the moment just to get drawn in. And I've found it very powerful to write out the statements that I will be making so that they're clear and I've I've vetted them first of all, and I feel okay, this is open, you know, it's there aren't any fingers lurking in this particular sentence that I may be saying. And I think that there's another aspect of as leaders, remembering from that first part of our conversation, what can we do? What could we do differently as leaders to make this sort of less of a risk in the future? We're coming close to our time. What three things would you say we should take away from this?

I think three of the things I would take away from this, and we talked about this at uh at some length around recognizing feedback needs to be given in a timely manner. We need to recognize as well that uh we as human beings rarely remember to ask, or and uh as leaders, we rarely remember to ask for the feedback, and we we need to really consciously think about this and then make it a part of our of our behaviors. Um, and when we ask for feedback, we need to ensure that we take the actions on that feedback that we get, especially as leaders. It's really important. Uh ensuring um the that the understanding that the team succeeds as a whole, but it's the the leadership that fails. That we we need to understand that uh from a feedback perspective, uh we've understanding the role of leadership and uh where they fit in this puzzle, and making sure that uh we I think we talked a lot about the different practices of what to do, what not to do, ensuring that you're not uh uh yelling at people uh in and calling people out individually in front of large teams and providing negative feedback in that manner. Uh that that should never happen, making sure that uh we're applying feedback in the appropriate manner and the appropriate setting, and ensuring that to uh to your last point there, write it down, make sure that we understand, we know what we're gonna say. Is there anything you'd add?

Um I don't think so. I think as long as we mentioned that that and this is a bit of a challenge, right? Leadership is responsible for the performance of the team. When they're poorly performing, it's a leadership challenge, not a team challenge. That one keeps me up at night. That's a tough one to take away because it's really easy to look for reasons outside of that. And I let's maybe uh end the note there on that sort of philosophical question. As always, uh, feedback and comments are always welcome. Uh so uh if you can drop us an email, feedback at definitely maybeagile.com. Uh Peter, again, a real pleasure chatting away with you and uh yeah, pleasure as always, Dave.

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