Where to start?

Welcome to Definitely Maybe Agile, the podcast where Peter Maddison and Dave Sharrock discuss the complexities of adopting new ways of working at scale. Hello, and welcome to the Definitely Maybe Agile podcast. I'm here with my good friend Dave Sherrock, and uh we're looking for another fascinating, interesting conversation. So, what are we talking about today, Dave?

Good to talk to you again, Peter. Um how to get going, where to start uh in an organizational change. And I think this comes from both you and I have had experiences recently of, you know, can you come in and effect some change in a short period of time? And how how do you go about doing something like that? It's actually an iterative and incremental approach to change. So we should be game for it, which is something we can do. But how do you actually go into an organization either as an external or an internal and make an impact in a short period of time?

And I think it's a fascinating question because there's these two pieces. When you're coming in as an outside consultant, you have very little visibility into how that organization is operating. Where are the pain points, where are the places I should focus? So one of the first things you need to do is start to understand how the organization is doing those things. So you can help them identify where those pain points are. And and quite often, and this is something that I I talk about quite a lot, is it's getting people to take a step back from looking at trees and start to see the forest, start to see the bigger picture, uh, so that they can s understand where do I need to start to focus? Where can I start if I can see more of the system, I can start to see where else, where might the pain points be, where are the things that might be hurting.

And this obviously is some form of an assessment or discovery piece, right? So we're having some conversations, we're looking at how things are working. I what I find interesting in that area is um there's a lot of there's a belief, if you like, that the longer your discovery or assessment is, the more likely you are to discover the secret source that's going to move you forward. But I'm always reminded, um, way back in the day, I used to work with um websites and uh worked in a web agency and we did a lot of work around usability. And Jakob Nielsen, who kind of put usability studies on the map, would always talk about you can get most of the information you need from eight to twelve conversations. You don't need thousands of people ranging over your website. The the marginal improvement you get above eight or twelve people is really not worth the effort of talking to more people. And uh I find that you know, especially in a world where you know there's data everywhere, big data analytics, and we need thousands of data points to come up with something. I think we have to remember that a half a dozen conversations and some, you know, the correct observations of a few key points will give you something to work on. It it's it's not necessary to spend three weeks assessing and reading through reams of documentations and reports and talking to dozens of people. You can get a place to start relatively quickly with some targeted conversations and bearing in mind that whole eight to twelve people is going to give you eighty to ninety percent of the the kind of places that you need to work when we were doing usability studies back in the day. Well, the same is true looking at an organizational shift.

It's good old Pareto, isn't it? It's the 80-20 rule that we uh can very rapidly uh get most of the information we need. Uh so what and the extra work that we end up putting in isn't really going to refine that or probably even discover anything else that we need to look for. I find one of the fastest ways, and this is typically how we do our assessments, is we we talk, we identify the stakeholders, we talk to those key few people, interview them, and then once we've done that, we we tend to get people together and run through a value stream mapping exercise or some form of workshop to like walk through how are things done today and what do you see, how is it operating, or then what happens? And so we can start to look at and start to understand what's happening, and that that can be one of the the fastest way to get to some understanding of where the pain points might be. And uh it it's so once you've rapidly got those in this short period of time, and the the it's this how can you show me value? And also, where's that quick win? How can I have this thing that I can do right away that's going to massively change my organization and set it on the right path to success because I want um agile and DevOps tomorrow? And can you please come in and uh uh in the next uh four weeks sprinkle some magic fairy dust and transform the whole organization? And it's uh no, but we can we can help you identify where to start, and we can give you some pointers as to some things that you should probably sort of try. Uh are there any things in particular that you've seen, Dave, that uh are common things that you often find yourself recommending or as places to start, or does it really just depend on the particular organization that you're great question?

So is there, you know, um I want to be careful here because I think if both of us went into similar organizations or the same organizations, almost certainly 70 or 80% of what we'd see and recommend would be the same. So are there common practices or common areas for improvement across organizations? Absolutely. There is there's plenty of them. Uh, I'm always reminded when you talk about value stream mapping, what I like about value stream mapping is the problem is not where the value is done, the problem is where there's non-value added work or delays. And the opportunity is tremendous in just actually getting into organizations and saying, why are you doing that? Stop doing that. Or, you know, let's reorganize that in a way that immediately gives you value. So I would say one of the first things, just putting that into context, that you can invariably have quite a big major impact on is understanding the delivery cycle, the process, and identifying probably some pretty significant, and I'm thinking tens of percent improvement in that process just by asking questions and seeing what's there and maybe thinking in a different way, bringing a bit of automation in or standardization. We were chatting about templates and communication and standardizing templates and communication and pieces like that. So I think there's that part, but um, in many cases, it's maybe more around things like transparency to enable the organization to have the right conversations. And I'm always um struck in organizations that we step into where they're trying to manage major product launches or you know, system upgrades, or all of these big projects or products with very little in the way of real transparency into where they are currently.

Yeah, that's uh that's a very interesting one, isn't it? When uh I can think of a variety of clients where it and there's there's this other side of this too, which I always find interesting when I now put my business hat on and I look at like where some of these things come from, and that uh despite all of this, they are still successful and they still deliver, and and we we see all of these pain points and we know that it can be done better, but if the but the results speak, so it's it also depends on what level you're looking at this too. It's uh because there's there are definitely opportunities to be more effective in the way that you deliver, and uh understanding and identifying these and uh uh helping streamline it so that you you have happier people who are more engaged and are ready to uh to come and solve interesting problems, and that that in turn leads to happier customers and greater revenue and a lot of other really good reasons to do this. Uh yet we see uh I see far more organizations that uh aren't operating with that in mind. But uh looking having that in the clarity into their end-to-end system and how they deliver value is something that's often missing. And so just being able to come in and show them like, well, this is this is how you do things today, uh, and let's have a look and say there are things that we could do here that will make everybody happier and be good for the organization too. Um, are you willing to come on that journey and seeing what that looks like?

Yeah, I think it's um the there is a there's a difference between that beginning of a long journey versus can you come in and sort of put a lever in a socket, push a little bit and make a big difference. And so there's sort of the common practices that we know we want to see, whether it's transparency, whether it's understanding about your product delivery process or life cycle or other bits and pieces like that, which are which everybody, I mean, this is a little bit like presentation skills and time management and project management skills. These are things that all of us should continually polish and practice and improve a little bit because the thinking changes and there's always something new to learn. I think another aspect is that sort of going in and having a significant catalytic impact in a very short period of time. And when I look at the situations where we've been able to have that catalytic influential shift, if you like, uh invariably that comes with a couple of things. Number one, it's a small change, it's never a big change, it can be a simple modification to how a meeting is being run or how priorities are discussed in an organization, or any number of different things solving a problem. Governance and some of the conversations around that. So it's typically small for very good reasons. We want to see what the unintended consequences are, we want to know that that's moving us in the right direction, but it's also often front of mind. I I I rarely go into organizations where the organization doesn't know what the problem is. They don't know what's right in front of them that they need to fix. So a lot of that initial conversation is really just listening for them to articulate what their concerns are, and then we're able to hone in and really say, brilliant, it this is something that at least the perception is this is an issue. So let's go work on this and make an impact there. And that's often just sometimes it's just as simple as that, as just trying to un uncover what it is that is hovering at the boundary of conscious and subconsciousness, perhaps.

Yeah, those bits that uh I agree with you a lot of the time, they're very well known, they know what where the problem is, and it's just bringing that to the fore, having the conversation about it, and making sure that it's in the open, we understand uh where it is. The the other side of that being they may not they may be aware of it, but think it's something that, well, we we can't solve that. Like I don't know how to even approach that problem. I think and then giving them some uh some ways of getting started with that as well, like sort of, well, what have you tried? Well, what could you try?

Yeah, sorry, I I was just gonna say I've just come off a conversation this morning, and and it's exactly that. There's it's it's the they know what the challenge is, they don't necessarily, they've not walked that path. So in a lot of situations, it's more like a wall or a constraint the within which they have to work. And hearing about that, there's often things that will, you know, from different experiences that we can help them sort of soften that constraint and actually break through it in many cases. And it's it's uh um how do I put it? It's a it's uh it's exactly the why you go for people of you know, your experience or the organizations that we're working with, with those you go for out outside guidance as much as anything, whether you bring somebody into the organization as an employee, a new hire, or you go and get somebody who's seen it in a number of other scenarios and can kind of lead the way, right? It's like a guide, a tugboat drawing somebody into a harbour, a boat into a harbour, or a guide on a mountain range that we've not walked before that will stop people, you know, help people get to the top which looks difficult or you know, without some help.

Yeah, the uh the COO I was uh was talking to the other day described it as uh uh wanting external validation of what he sees and what he suspects and adding some further insights into that, and uh which I found a an interesting uh way of putting it, and that uh having the exposure to that. So what other things um if we're looking at like where to start, um what other things might we think of that we could help people uh or help people guide them towards uh a direction.

I so the thing that strikes me is just do something, right? Take action. And I'm always rem reminded of the ordered unordered domains and the complexity conversation around complex or complicated problems. But one of the challenges that w I certainly see a lot of the time is um organizations or people who want to analyze the problem and understand it and document it and map it out. And I would certainly say, and I'm sure I speak for yourself as well, our tendency is to go and swing a bat at the problem and act on it. And by swing a bat, I don't mean try and break it, but I mean you know, do something so that we can start seeing whether or not that was a moving in the right direction or moving in the wrong direction, so we can adjust and understand better. So it's it's a little bit like going in and doing a small thing safely to validate the hypotheses or the assumptions that we have as we understand what's there.

Yeah, and we we've talked about experimentation in the past and the the need to ensure that when you're running experiments that you you properly have started them with and understanding what the outcomes are. And yeah, uh there's yeah, I think that's a very key point. It's that uh don't spend all of your time uh documenting and uh and trying to work out what might possibly be. Uh you're you're far better off saying, hey, I I there's something that hurts here if I if I prod it, I then I sort of hear squeals. And so now how do I design an experiment around that to that might help me learn a little bit more, help me discover a little bit more around how I might possibly go about solving this? What kind of things can I put into place to measure to see if it has a noticeable impact in the on how that is how that behavior or how that point is being uh being done.

Now, um is there anything that you would shy away from when you go into have and we're talking not here about a long journey, but we're talking about hey, we can give you, you know, we'd like you to come in for a couple of months and make an impact, and you're just sitting there going, what what are the things you won't touch?

Uh what I'll I'll tend to shy away from in myself in that is if uh if I'm looking at uh things which are outside of the immediate influence of the person who is the sponsor or looking at this, if they um and if I was actually doing this this recently where they I was being asked for quick winds, I said there are things that need to be done in this organization, but they're outside of your sphere of influence. So if you're wanting things that you can get done right now and experiment on and see a result from or run an experiment that you can do in the next few weeks, um then yes, you need to tackle these, and I can give you some direction and guidance as to what it would take to tackle them, and they're they're good things to tackle, but they're not in your they're they're not something you have the ability to take action on immediately yourself. So they're not necessarily quick wins, they're gonna be longer term things that are gonna require building the influence and having the discussions and getting agreement and consensus to move forward on. Uh so there's there's things like that that I would tend to shy away from. Um certain uh potentially looking at it on a technical side, if there are um technical activities that may w may be disruptive because if I'm that new to the organization, I may not have a decent enough understanding of the underlying pieces that I so making a rec I'd shy away from making a recommendation that there might be good reasons without being able to go and do some deeper digging, unless I can look at it and say 100% you need to fix this now, which I I can think of a recent example of that where um it there an an architectural problem that I can see that if they don't fix it, it's gonna cause some very bad knock-on effects at a later date. Um and now would be the time to fix it. So before they get too much further down this road. Um but uh outside of that, yeah, I think those would be two areas that I would shy away from. How about yourself? What sort of things would uh would you shy away from?

I I kind of like what you I mean uh I'm thinking long wavelength changes, things that you can't see the results of. So it's not at least not quickly. So um totally agree. You know, there's sometimes there's fires that need putting out immediately, right? Um, and then there are um there are areas that are outside of span of influence or control, and those are those are longer term things that need to kind of you you've got to buy consensus, you've got to get consensus, let me say, not buy it, but get buy-in or build consensus around those sorts of cross-organization changes that that are beyond your span of control. Uh what I'm also worried about are things like um long wavelength changes that will take a long time to actually land and get put in place. So if I think of simple things around HR, around incentives or hiring practices and things like that, they're great places to have good conversations and there's some really important stuff to do there. But in a two or three month period of time, you're not going to see the consequences, the the impact of those. So those would, you know, long wavelength when long wavelength changes kind of come off the table. Um, and it's you're you look at uh, you know, it's I always think of it as power at a point, right? It's the influence at a single point. How can you find that one point so that you're able to get in there and sh and and have an impact?

Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it. So to sum this up for our listeners, uh, what three points uh do we want to have them take away?

Well, I think we we we started with um you know, listen, look for the points of like it's almost the the bright spots in the sense of uh the areas that people are concerned about, whether consciously or subconsciously, figure out what those are. And we discore discussed it being relatively short set of conversations rather than a deep dive in terms of understanding. Um I definitely think I mean huge well, we're iterative and incremental people, right? So huge fan of small changes, not big changes. Big changes invariably have large unintended consequences, and they can disrupt things a lot more than we can ever imagine. So small changes, pressure at a point type of thing. Um and I got to say get something done rather than document and plan and analyze. Um you know, we don't always have an opportunity to spend a long time with an organization. We want to make sure that they get benefit and something that they can carry with them and move forward that's different. So it's gonna be small, focused on what they already know about, so areas that that become obvious that need work and uh do something rather than plan something. Anything you'd add?

I like it. I think that's a that's a great way to sum it up. So thank you again. I love the conversation as always. If anybody wants to reach out, they can uh send us feedback at feedback at definitely maybeagile.com. And uh yeah, thank you, Dave. That was uh a wonderful conversation as always.

Thanks again, Peter. Look forward to the next one. Talk to you soon.

You've been listening to Definitely Maybe Agile, the podcast where your hosts Peter Maddison and Dave Sharrock focus on the art and science of digital, agile, and DevOps at scale.